Meaning of this symbol?

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Meaning of this symbol?

Post by AreWeThereYet? »

Hi all

trying to tap into the collective wisdom of the forum, here, to get to understand more of this pole.

This is an abandoned mosque in Bukhara's city centre; as you can see there is a particularly strange wooden pole, I'd say 4-5 metres tall, standing just outside the main prayer building (so part of the complex).

Image

The upper half of the pole is carved in a helicoidal pattern and is surmounted by an outstretched metal hand (sorry for the rubbish picture)

Image

Also, hanging from a side 'branch', is a bundle of horse hair.

Image

Any help greatly appreciated!
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by mazeno »

it is probably a grave of a significant man, marked with the horse tail (a proverb says: "when a kyrgyz* dies, his horse dies with him").
the hand of fatima on the top is an amulet protecting against "evil eye".

--
* - kyrgyz in the old, precommunism era meaning.
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by AreWeThereYet? »

Thanks a lot Mazeno!

out of curiosity, what do you mean by "old, pre-soviet Kyrgyz"?
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by mazeno »

generally speaking:
nowadays kyrgyz means a citizen of kyrgyzstan (former karakyrgyz = black kyrgyz, according to their black yurts) and kazakh means a citizen of kazakhstan (former nothern kyrgyz).
kyrgyz in the past enclosed all the turkish-language-nomads, originated from the yenisey kyrgyz (sibierian kakas), moved to mongolia, central asia and western siberia in the middle ages. kazakhs enclosed the nomads originated mainly from the western siberia tribes (they were called kyrgyz in pre-soviet era).
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by AreWeThereYet? »

Really interesting, thanks!

It's intriguing, this 'social engineering' done by the Soviets. I was thinking about it when I was in Osh and tried to know more about it, but never quite managed to find anything relevant. Have you got any further reading that I could tap into? Thanks.
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by mazeno »

huh
i have more than 200 books on central asia (including sovietstans, uyghur, pakistan, afganistan, nepal, india) but mostly in polish and some in russian. i suppose most of them are not known in the western countries. of course there are some popular authors like colin thubron or peter hopkirk but on the other hand some specialized studies like vadim ranov, jadwiga pstrusinska or andrzej rozwadowski (archeologists).

maybe try these for the begining:
lev gumilov - history of ancient turks,
lev gumilov - in the footprints of civilisation of the great steppe
bobodzhan gafurov - the tajiks. oldest, old and medieval history (it is about history and culture of central asia peoples, not only about the tajiks).

(but these are my translations of the titles, i don't know if it is in english).
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by AreWeThereYet? »

Thank you so much, Mazeno. Will check 'em out.
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by steven »

This book is very thorough on the subject. It's academic though: https://history.wisc.edu/publications/e ... iet-union/

You can learn all about the tug-of-war to delineate the Ferghana Valley for instance.
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by AreWeThereYet? »

Thanks a lot Steven, unfortunately those suggested by Mazeno aren't available in English but I'll check out this one.
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Re: Meaning of this symbol?

Post by mazeno »

below some titles from my library, maybe it can help you a bit while searching
as follows
title (in english or russian if available) - author/authors, publisher or place of publishing and year (language)
(if popular i skip the publisher and year)


памир - a.gavriluk/v.yaroshenko, izdavatelstvo planeta 1987 (russian)
kazakhstan - k.serikbajeva/d.zamurovic (english/russian/kazakh)
podroze nieodkryte, dziennik ekspedycji bronislawa grabczewskiego 1889-1890 (in russian: неодкрытые путешествя, дневник експедыцйи бронислава громбчевского 1889-1890) - w.popiel-machnicki/a.pleskaczynski/k.pleskaczynska, wydawnictwo uam 2017 (polish/russian)
the return of the king - w.darlymple
the great game - p.hopkirk
горы киргистана - collective work, bishkek technologia 2001 (russian)
wielka encyklopedia gor i alpinizmu, vol.II, gory azji - m. and j.kielkowski, wega/stapis 2005 (polish)
podroze po azji srodkowej - b.grabczewski, pwn 1958, pwn 2010 (polish)
wielki gracz - m.cegielski, karakter 2015
kultura i zycie spoleczne azji srodkowej - collective work, wydawnictwo uam 1983 (polish)
o tajnych jezykach afganistanu i ich uzytkownikach (on the secret languages of afghanistan and their speakers) - j.pstrusinska, krakow 2004 (polish/english)
wies srodkowego i polnocnego afganistanu - m.gawecki, wroclaw 1983 (polish)
afganistan 79-89, dolina panczsziru - a.kowalczyk, altair 1994 (polish)
nowa wielka gra w regionie azji centralnej - collective work, lublin 2012 (polish)
the handbook of central asia. a comprehensive survey of the new republics - g.capisani, 2000 (english?), dialog 2004 (polish)
indoiranczycy, sztuka i mitologia - a.rozwadowski, wydawnictwo naukowe uam 2003 (polish)
leon barszczewski (1849-1910). od samarkandy do siedlec - i.strojecki, siedlce 2010 (polish)
foreign devils on the silk road - p.hopkirk
7 years in tibet - h.harrer
silk road (die seidestrasse) - h.uhlig
tibet - h.uhlig
the snow leopard - p.mathiesen
silk road - l.boulnois
na sluzbie rosyjskiej - b.grabczewski, warszawa 1990 (polish)
afganistan. po co nam ta wojna - g.indulski/m.keskrawiec, warszawa 2007 (polish)
prochy swietych - r.sikorski, polonia 1990 (polish)
an afghan journey - r.willemsen
moj chlopiec, motor i ja - h.korolec-bujakowska, warszawa 2011 (polish)
wielkie religie wschodu - a.zwolinski, petrus 2008 (polish)
na zachod od gangesu - a.zwolinski, wydawnictwo wam 1998 (polish)
alexander the great - i.worthngton
неповторенными путями - e.murzaev, molodaya gvardya 1954 (russian)
travels in tian-shan 1856-1857 - p.semenov
памятники искусстба советского союза, средняя азия - g.pugachenkova, izdavatelstvo iskusstvo 1983 (russian)
од алтая до гималаев - l.shaposhnikova, izdavatelstvo planeta 1987 (russian)
ustroje polityczne krajow wspolnoty niepodleglych panstw - collective work, wuw 2007 (polish)
путешествия по памиру (wedrowki po pamirze) - p.luknicki, molodaya gvardya 1955 (russian), sport i turystyka 1968 (polish)
по неиследованномы памиру - n.krylenko, moskva 1960 (russian)
в горач памира и тянь-шаня (w poszukiwaniu yeti) - c.stanukovich, izdavatelstvo mysl 1977 (russian), warszawa 1988 (polish)
w skale i lodzie - w.ostrowski, czytelnik 1982 (polish)
par caucase et pamir aux indes - g.bonvalot
moja wyprawa na pamiry - j.toeplitz-morozowska, lwow-warszawa 1934 (polish)
загадки тянь-шаня (wyprawy w tien-szan) - i.cherepov, warszawa 1956 (polish)
morze swiatla - m.sawicki, bialystok 2015 (polish)
sovjetistan - erika fatland
walka o szczyt swiata -.j.dorawski, iskry 1955 (polish)
przez afganistan, pakistan i indie - m.dunin, warszawa 1956 (polish)
gra o himalaje - w.gielzynski, iskry 1980 (polish)
nepal. stare i nowe - w.gielzynski, warszawa 1969 (polish)
cien amanullaha - r.piekarowicz, ksiazka i wiedza 1984 (polish)
afgzanistan - z.strzednicki, warszawa 1963 (polish)
mongolia - a.rona-tas, warszawa 1965 (polish)
tradycje i legendy ludow mongolii - s.kaluzynski, iskry 1978 (polish)
gwiazdy suchego stepu - m.kuczynski, nasza ksiegarnia 1965 (polish)
w cieniu czomolungmy - j.samusik, krakow 1993 (polish)
tam gdzie plynie indus - h.adamczewska, nasza ksiegarnia 1983 (polish)
himalajskie krolestwo - j.samusik, nasza ksiegarnia 1991 (polish)
wokol annapurny - j.samusik, warszawa 1987 (polish)
do himalajow wiecznych sniegow skarbnicy - w.branski, warszawa 1981
nepal. kroletswo wsrod chmur - k.debnicki, warszawa 1981 (polish)
na szczytach himalajow - z.kowalewski, j.kurczab, warszawa 1983 (polish)
biala gora - a.skoczylas, warszawa 1965 (polish)
tam, gdzie bogowie sa wiecznie mlodzi - m.warnenska, warszawa 1984 (polish)
courting the diamond sow - w.walker, ng society 2000
wolf of the plains (wilk ze stepow) - c.iggulden, warsszawa 2008 (polish)
serce azji -m.b.skladankowie, ksiazka i wiedza 1976 (polish)
pakistan - k.wolski, ksiazka i wiedza 1978 (polish)
sladami aleksandra macedonskiego - b.zurawski, warszawa 1985 (polish)
искусство средней азии (sztuka azji srodkowej) - b.stawiski, moskva 1974/warszawa 1988 (russian/polish)
architektura afganistanu - j.pierzchlewicz, arkady 1989 (polish)
architektura mongolii - t.barucki, arkady 1981 (polish)
w afganistanie, kraju buzkaszi - j.petrus, warszawa 1974 (polish)
afganistan. zarys dziejow - j.petrus, warszawa 1987 (polish)
ku indyjskiej rubiezy - w.korsak, warszawa 1957 (polish)
polacy w kazachstanie w XIXw. - g.sapargaliyev/v.dyakov warszawa 1982 (polish)
batyr - w.jewsiewicki, warszawa 1983 (polish)
frunze w meczecie - c.koscielniak, poznan 2016 (polish)
zjadlem marco polo - k.samborski, helion 2014 (polish)
syberia, dziennik podrozy - a.dlaboga, warszawa 2013 (polish)
radziecka azja srodkowa - g.strumillo-milosz, warszawa 1979 (polish)
terenowka przez cwierc swiata - p.karwecki, complex 2012 (polish)
himkal cu-cu-ra - j.hajdukiewicz, warszawa 1960 (polish)
swieta gora sikkimu - w.wroz, warszawa 1982 (polish)
lez cavaliers - j.kessel
zielone wzgorza ulan bator- r.bilczak, katowice 2010 (polish)
modlitwa o deszcz - w.jagielski, warszawa 2007 (polish)
piec razy swiat - i.odrowaz-pieniazkowa, pax 1974 (polish)
kraj swietych krow i biednych ludzi - w.gielzynski, warszawa 1977 (polish)
skarby znad amu-darii - j.rygolunas, warszawa 1977 (polish)
everest the hard way - c.bonington
w cieniu kangczendzengi - m.malatynski, warszawa 1978 (polish)
zwrotnik dinozaura - m.kuczynski, warszawa 1977 (polish)
ucieczka do indii - k.mroziewicz, warszawa 1996 (polish)
nieznanym szlakiem - f.ossendowski, lomianki 2010 (polish)
rowerem w strone indii - r.maciag, pelplin 2011 (polish)
zwierzeta, ludzie, bogowie - f.ossendowski, bialystok 1991 (polish)
wszyscy jestesmy nomadami - m.dzieduszycka-ziemilska, warszawa 2012 (polish)
история открытия и исследования советской азии (historia poznania radzieckiej azji) - collective work, moskva 1969/warszawa 1979 (russian/polish)
des monts celestes aux des sables rouges - e.mallart
on the trail of genghis khan - t.cope
the places in between - r.stewart
in siberia - c.thubron
to a mountain in tibet - c.thubron
the lost heart of asia - c.thubron
shadow of the silk road - c.thubron
kazakhstan. the land of wonders - collective work, almaty 2009 (enlish)
rida to khiva - f.burnaby
wielblad na stepie. krzyz poludnia -j.krzyszton, czytelnik 1987 (polish)
buran - w.gorecki, warszawa 2018 (polish)
pijani bogiem - m.cegielski, warszawa 2007 (polish)
кочевники - i.esenberlin
azja odmieniona - w.kisch, warszawa 1959 (polish)
pod sloncem beskidow pod gwiazda szanraku - i.karasinska, wam 2004 (polish)
wystarczy przejsc przez rzeke - l.wlodek, krakow 2014 (polish)
usmiech bez parandzy - g.a.miloszowie, warszawa 1973 (polish)
przez plonacy wschod - f.goetel, warszawa 1939 (polish)
afganistan. parla nist - t.kaminski, branta 2009 (polish)
niewolnicy - s.ajni, czytelnik 1953 (polish)
abaj, syn kazachstanu - m.auezow, czytelnik 1950-1951 (polish)
the peacock throne - w.hansen
altai-himalaya - m.rerich
the secret history of the mongols
tradycje i legendy ludow tureckich - s.kaluzynski, iskry 1986 (polish)
dach swiata - v.jerofejev, warszawa 193? (polish)
в горах памира - v.jacenko, moskva 1950 (russian)
na egzotycznych szlakach - collective work, wroclaw 1987 (polish)
pamir. kalendarium polskich wypraw aplinistycznych 1960-2015 - a.sobolewski, warszawa 2018 (polish)
побежденные вершины 1953 - moskwa 1954 (russian)

this is part one
give me a brake
part two in (an undefined) future ;)
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